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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:25 pm 
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My budy at Willwood ran the numbers with me, you would be surprised of the pressure difference between the LUV master and S-10 master. Don't forget about volume as well. We ran the system on his computer on a program designed for checking pressures with different size masters and different volume calipers, then compared them to the aerospace kit and stock values. Like he said, there is a difference from designing a system and engineering a system. With that I am done answering this post.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:50 pm 
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The Front Calipers On The Rear Is Just A Last Ditch Effort. I Have A Pressure Regulator If I Decide To Do This. This Method Is Trusted Only Because I Have See It Done On Both Street Cars And Dirt Track Cars, Which Is Where I Most Of The Time See This Method. I Have A Set Of T/A Rear Calipers That I Have Planes To Used. So This Really Don't Bring Up A Complication.

The Who Thing With The Master Cylinder Was To Feed A Full Size Chevy Truck Drive Line W/ A LUV Cassie and Body. The Master Cylinder Bought For A 70's Camaro/Truck Is What He Uses. It Has Serve Him Well. I Only Plan To Use This Method IF the Factory Master Cylinder Wont Work.

I Would Like To See These Numbers To Compare Everything.
I Would Like To See How Far Off Everything Is. They Are Some Ways Of Adjusting Things If Close Enough.

But If They Are A Big of A Difference Like You Say They Are, Which I Completely Believe It Is Possible. I Can Still Fall Back On Using A Older Model Chevy Master Cylinder I Would Be Using Similar Calipers To Say A 78 Trans Am W/ The S10 Calipers, and I Will Have The Rear Disc Brakes Off The Same Car, I Even Have The Factory Pressure Regulator Off This Car. It Would Basically Be Using The Whole Set Up Off The Car It Should Work. Right? If/When It Works Is When I'll Start Investing The After Market Calipers and Rotors To Improve On Everything.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:18 pm 
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i use a 81 corvette master cylinder on mine since i have stock front disc and chevy rear disk on a 9'' / anyway i just ordered the areospace kit and before i install im taking it to a few shops to see if it can be duplicated useing oem stuff. such as the bearings , rotor, and hubs. all most of us want is the ability to run a 5 hole wheel. most any disk brake will work for the magority of us. i drag race mine so i need a dam good kit to shut-r down from 135- 140mph.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:50 pm 
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I Agree...They Kit Should Be Tested Soon...My Mounts Should Be In Any Day and All I Need To Do Is Build My Core Support and Drop In A Engine.

But Does The Master Cylinder Work Fine w/ The Factory Front Brakes? You Happen To Drive It Before You Swapped Master Cylinders? Did It Effect The Breaking Performance?

I Need To Go Talk To a Buddy Of Mine To Get Some Actual Numbers So I Will Know Exactly What All Is Opposing Problems, If Any. He Was An Engineer For Strange Engineering For Seven Years I Believe. He May Have Some Answers For Me. I Will Also Get Him To Look At The Truck, If Possible.

The Design May Still Have A Few Flaws...But WILL Be Worked Out One Way Or Another.

Hey RedLUV80 When Are We Going Down To Summit? I Need To Get The Crap For My Engine Soon! May Pick Up Some Crapolla For My Truck Aswell. Gotta Out Run Yours...lol Then I'll Have To Line Up Next To Drew and Your Bro.

Anyway I Believe I Am Gonna Go Jump On My Truck For A Few Hours

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:08 am 
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BlackLuv80 wrote:
My Major Goal In This Mock-Up Build Is To See If Everything Will Work.
Well I Currently Don't See A Reason In Why It Shouldn't. I Wanted To Get The S10 Spindles Mounted That Way I COULD Get Better Brakes. You Can Find After Market Breaks For S10's, Monte Carlo's, And Camaro's.

I Plan On Swapping To A Set Of After Market Calipers, Drilled And Slotted Rotors, Drop Spindles, And Steal Breaded Brake Lines. In Other Words This Is Just A Mock Up To Work Out The Bugs Before I Started Improving.

I Will Also Be Using 4X4 S10 Drilled And Slotted Front Rotors On The Back With Either A Set Of S10 Front Calipers On The Rear or I Will Use A Set Of Trans Am Rear Disc Brake Calipers, For The Sake Of Having A Parking Brake!:


Thats fair enough if the chevvy stuff is well catered for in the aftermarket. I live in a different part of the world so im not up on that stuff.

BlackLuv80 wrote:
Which Should Be Better Braking Then Factory LUV Brakes, And There Not Alot Out There, That I've Found, After Market Brake Kits For "Higher Performance" Chevy LUV Pickem' Up Trucks. In Other Words I Want To Make Sure This Truck Will Stop Before I Ever Make It Go. Make Since? I Feel That Brakes Are Often Over Looked When Someone Drops A Big Hopped Up Engine In A Factory Based Car.


I have the same thoughts along those lines. But if 350 equipped full bodied "sports" cars came with factory drums on the rear, i dont see why they wont do on my hotted up 4cyl ute. Well for now any way.

BlackLuv80 wrote:
Far As Geometry, It All Stays The Same. The Hight Of The Spindle Is Taller With A S10 BUT When You Drop It Below The Control Arm,Roughly 2 1/2 - 3 ", It Is Almost Perfectly The Same As Factory


As Far The Tie Rod Ends I Forgot To Take Pics Of Them They Completely Slipped My Mind. But They Work Perfect As Well. The Only Reason I Swapped To A S10 Tie Rod End Is The Factory LUV Rod Ends Are None Adjustable And The Arm That The S10 Spindle Has To Connect To Em Are At A Different Angle Then Factory. So I Used A S10 Tie Rod End For The Added Adjustabllitie. After A Slight Amount Of Clearance Work Is Done To The Inside Of The Control Arm, Mainly On The Back Side, Rang Of Motion Is Just Like It Was Meant To Be. You Can Turn The Wheel From One Bump Stop Screw To The Other..


Its those two paragraphs that trouble me.

Im thinking that perhaps you should read this and have a think about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_steering_geometry and this http://www.procarcare.com/icarumba/resourcecenter/encyclopedia/icar_resourcecenter_encyclopedia_suspsteer3.asp And you could search for info on something called 'scrub radius'.
Theres a lot more to front end geometry than being able to get full lock to lock steering. Theres also more than ive touched on above.

Thousandsths of an inch and/or a degree or two can make all the difference. Carefully check out the drop spindles as they are usually different to the stock spindle in more than just the stub axle height. Ive not heard too many good stories about what drop spindles do for steering.
Your planning to have the brakes to stop some power house motor, would be a shame if the front end was all up the shit and it drove like a pig and was all over the road.

Bob.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:12 am 
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LUVTruck.com Lifer

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BlackLuv80 wrote:
The Front Calipers On The Rear Is Just A Last Ditch Effort. I Have A Pressure Regulator If I Decide To Do This. This Method Is Trusted Only Because I Have See It Done On Both Street Cars And Dirt Track Cars, Which Is Where I Most Of The Time See This Method. I Have A Set Of T/A Rear Calipers That I Have Planes To Used. So This Really Don't Bring Up A Complication..



The front caliper generally has heaps more pistion area to fill than the rear caliper. As suggested i would use the calipers off another car.


zBob.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:59 pm 
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Thanks For The Insight rodeobob...Now Let Me Ask Is The Factory LUV Geometry Work Nicely? Because The Only Thing I Have Changed Is The Outer Tie Rod End Angle, Due To The Spindle, However Using The Adjustable Rod Ends Off A S10 Solved This Problem. The Only Other Problem Was The Arm Separation. In Which They Are Only A Two and A Half Inch Difference In The Spindles. But Dropping The Ball Joint To The Underside Plus The Additional Half Inch Of Steel Plate. Everything Is Back To Factory Specs. Factory Pivot Point. The Center Line Of The Ball Joints Are Retained At There Factory Locations. The Caster & Camber Angels Are Both Completely Adjustable To Set The Alignment. The Toe In/Out Is Actually More Adjustable With The Added Adjustability Of The Tie Rod End. You Still Adjust The Upper Control Arm With Shims To Maintain Camber Angle. So What Exactly In The Suspension Geometry Has Been Altered Enough To Cause Worry? The Truck Will Be Taken To A Alignment Shop In Town Before It Is Driven Regularly.


rodeobob wrote:
BlackLuv80 wrote:
I Have A Set Of T/A Rear Calipers That I Have Planes To Used. So This Really Don't Bring Up A Complication..



As suggested i would use the calipers off another car.


zBob.


Think I Said I Was Most Likely Use A Set Of 1978 Trans Am Rear Disc Break Calipers That I Will Prob Be Using. I Have The Whole Rear End Out Of A 1978 Trans Am w/ Rear Disk Breaks, Planned On Using It On My Camaro. I Am Going To Buy A New Set Of Calipers For My Car and Use The GM Rear Disk Break Calipers On My Truck.


As Far As The #'s I Am Trying To Retrieve, The Guy I Know Is In Metral Beach and Wont Be Back Until Tuesday. I'll Know More Information About The Brake Fluid Pressure and Volume Comparison Then.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:37 pm 
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BlackLuv80 wrote:
So What Exactly In The Suspension Geometry Has Been Altered Enough To Cause Worry? The Truck Will Be Taken To A Alignment Shop In Town Before It Is Driven Regularly...



I would go see him now.
The steering arm difference on the stub axle would be the main concern seeeing as your confidant that the ball joints are in the same spot.
Load up some weight over the crossmember to replicated an engine etc and get it checked out.


Having said that wheel alignment generaly does toe, camber, castor and kingpin inclination. So any issues you might have with steering angles and geometry might not be able to be measured but theres a good chance they can be.


The tierod and drag link relationship to the stub axle and its steering arm is complex. They need to travel in the same arcs up and down other wise up down movement can cause pull and that equalls bump steer. So if moving from standard you lengthen or shorten or move the location of the steering arm up or down you could create issues.

So this conversion acutally working and being nice and driveable are two seperate issues. Youve got it bolted up so it works, Have you been for a spin around the block yet????

Personally before i forked out my hard earned i would want someone with a similar setup to varify that it drives well. Ive driven vehicles with bad bump steer and it detracts highly from the driving pleasure.


Bob.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:04 pm 
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I See Your Point

But Viewingly I Can't See A Prob Everything Is Either To The Factory Specs Of A Luv and or A S10. I Am Going To Trailer My Truck To A Car Wash Tomorrow To Pressure Wash The Under Carriage. I Then Will Bolt Up A Set Of Coil Overs and Run It By My Cousins Alignment Shop. He Has Been Doing It For Years and Has Had To Deal With Home Made Suspension Components Before. He Could Maybe Enlighten Me On What I May Be Doing Wrong. If Nothing Else He Will Adjust My Alignment. But Tonight I Think I Will Take My Empty Th350 Case and Bare Block 350 and Mock Up Everything And Weld In My Motor Mounts I Got Thanks To RedLuV80 And Our Little Bitch Boy Jason..lol

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:32 am 
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LUVTruck.com Lifer

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As the suspension travels up and down everything hinges off the chassis and the up down movements are in an arc.

If you draw a line between the inner mounts for the upper and lower arms this line should intersect the piviot point for the inner end of the draglink (or inner piviot on a steering rack) in the straight ahead position.
That will see that the arc the steering arm moves in is the same as the arc the suspension arm travel in.

The tierods have to go from that piviot point to the arm on the steering nuckle, and where that arm i located is relavant to what arc it will follow. If the arm on the knuckle is mounted high high or low or in or out will affect the way the tierod can pull on the knuckle as the suspension arms move thru its arc.

If the arms on the knuckle arent in the right spot as you turn the wheel the outer end of the tie rod (on the knuckle) wont follow the arc it should.


As far as i know the relationship between the suspension movements is setup in the as roaded position. So thats at the height the suspension sits for normal duties (hence weight in the front to replicate engine) it makes sense. If everything is as it should be you wont get bump steer as the wheels go up and down. its designed to be at or close to the centre of the arc of travel.

On a wheel aligner you cant measure alignment during suspension travel. Well im not aware that you can. So it wont tell you if your going to get bump steer. Its still not a bad idea to get it checked out for what it can measure. The input you get will be helpfull none the less.

What can be measured on a wheel aligner is the ackerman angle. This will show up if the arms on the knuckle are too long or short. If this is not close to right while turning the tyres will fight each other for grip and directional control.


Bob.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:02 am 
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More R Less Just Seeing If The Forum Will Allow Flash Slide Shows

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:03 am 
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Nope :?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:03 pm 
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Another stupid reply on what we do on VW's.

When upgrading from drum to disks, we usually use a master cylinder from a type3(factory discs) which has a larger bore and stroke, already a disk brake setup, that will handel the disc brake upgrade. If you go larger on the brakes, a Porsche unit or aftermarket (dune buggy stuff) is required.

I would think a S10 unit would be fine. A full size unit may be hard to fit. A lot of new hotrod units and race stuff out there. It should not be hard to find a good unit for this upgrade.
Richard

I would think someone would make larger brakes for the s10.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:47 pm 
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Well The S10 Master Cylinder Is The Same Exact Design As A Full Size. Areospace Sells The Same/Similar Kit That I Am Talking About Having Made For Me

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So Breaks Is Not A Question Anymore, I Strongly Believe The Factory Master Cylinder Will Work, Since The Pressure Is The Same But The Volume Is Just Slightly Different. But I Am Going To Go Ahead and Swap Just So I Can Make Sure I Covered Every Aspect Of The Breaking System.

I Will Be Using A Adapter And Older GM Master Cylinder, S10 Brakes In The Front, Trans Am Read Disc Breaks In The Rear, and A Adjustable Proportioning Valve.


The Only Question Now I Guess Is The Geometry Actually Correct. I Have Had It Check Out By A Specialist And Only Thing He Seen He Didn't Like Is Me Removing The Torsion Bars, He Says There One Of The Best Suspension Set Ups Ever Created. Which I Don't Have A Prob With Them Other Then There In The Way For Tranny Swaps. But Anyway More Pics To Come Of The Truck On All Fours Administrating Turning Radieus. And Suspension Travel Thats About As Most As I Can Show Without It Running, Which Will Hopefully Come Soon. I Will Try To Keep Ya'll Posted

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:37 pm 
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Blackluv80 just to toss my two cents in right now i have disc all around and i'm using a master cyl. off a 89 Jeep cherokee with no proportioning valve and it works good but i have big rear tires to. I have a prob. with one of my rear brake pads and when i fix it i will go back to using a disc/disc nissan 7/8 master cyl. (high press. a little more leg power but allot of stoping power) some people are over calculating the brake system and making it to difficult. I have used Chevy Monza booster master asy. on full size cars and pickups with no prob. and have very good brakes.I have used Baer Brake kits that go to 4 wheel disc and use the stock disc/drum master cyl. with a gutted prop. valve and a adjustable one installed and believe me those brakes do work.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:22 am 
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Let me add my nickel's worth. My brake setup utilizes the stock luv rotors redrilled to five lug, factory Lincoln Versallies rear discs on my 9 inch, :D a stock S10 master cylinder, no brake booster, and no proportioning valve. I've had no problem stopping so far, and that's bringing her down from 125 mph trap speeds in the 1/8 mile at my local track with a relatively short stopping distance to the return road. I don't know if it will work for everyone this way, but I have had no problems so far. I'm probably going to upgrade to the Aerospace front and rears though since I'm stepping up in motor and I don't want to add a chute. This will be strictly for more surface area on the larger diameter rotors, not because the setup is not working properly.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:00 pm 
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Shawn, What's the chances of getting you to make me a set of just the ball joint plates like yours? I'm ready to start tearing mine down and the rest of it I can pick up locally. Thanks :smt100


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:37 pm 
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How many people here are buying this bracket for the lower S-10 ball joint system you are decribing here?
How many people want to do an S-10 front spindle system?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:00 pm 
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I Have Only Made 2 Sets of These Plats So Far, Then 2nd Set Looks Much Nicer, But Anyway. Currently I Have Had Like 8 Requests. But Access To The Water Jet is Slightly Tied Up Currently. I Actually Haven't Came Up With A Price, I Really Don't Know What Would Be A Reasonable Thing To Ask.

Now That I Have Everthing Mounted Tightly Clearance, and Clean Up I Am Now Even More Confident On Everything. It Seems To Respond Just Like The Factory Set Up, I Still Haven't Gotten Far Enough To Preform A Road Test (No Engine) But Everthing Looks Like It Will Work Quite Nicely.

I Have More Photo's of This Swap I'll Try To Post Sometime This Weekend.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:13 pm 
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Pictures Been Relocated In Photobucket. Here Are The New Links.

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and Again I Will Be Posting More Pics By The End Of The Weekend.

Here Are A Few More But Not The Current Ones I Was Talking About

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Under Body Clean Up

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http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 030003.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 030004.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 030005.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 030006.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 030007.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 030008.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 030009.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 030010.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 030011.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 030012.jpg

More Random Pics

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040001.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040002.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040003.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040004.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040005.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040006.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040007.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040008.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040009.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040010.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040011.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040012.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040013.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040014.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040015.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040016.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040017.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040021.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 040022.jpg

Ran Out of Gas For The Pressure Washer

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 060013.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 060014.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 060015.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 060016.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 060017.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q106 ... 060018.jpg

More Still To Come

_________________
Image


Last edited by BlackLuv80 on Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:35 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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