LUVTruck.com

This is the correct answer, and anyone who says otherwise can claim their nobel prize for the thermodynamics discovery of the millenium.

The linear coefficient of thermal expansion(CTE) of Aluminum is 12.3E-6 in/in, and the CTE of steel is 7.3x10E-6, or a little more than half of Aluminum's.

That means that over the length of a 20" Aluminum head, you can expect expansion of about 0.05"(1.25mm) between a cold engine and a hot one.*
For the same 20" length of steel block, the expansion is 0.029"(.75mm) between cold and hot*(little more than half, remember)
Assuming the head and block heat at the same rate, the gasket sees a half millimeter of movement, minimum, every time you heat the engine. This number would only grow larger if there were any head/block heat differential, which I assume would be the case in reality.

If there was a rubberized compound that could withstand that kind of elongation over thousands of heat cycles, we'd use that as gasket material. Since that doesn't exist, we use high-temp graphite composites because they can slip a little, and they handle the temperature differential better than rubbers or plastics, including gasket sealers.

In other words, that tackifier is creating 20 thou(a half millimeter's worth) of sheer tension across the long dimension of the engine/head gasket joint. This is all needless tension between the gasket and the expanding metals it is stuck to. It's slightly counter-intuitive, but tackifier, copper paint, etc are the opposite of helpful with mixed-metal engines. The tension is slowly pulling the gasket apart, exercising it back and forth, and creating slightly-larger-each-time crevices and capillaries for oil and water to wick into.

With mixed-metal engines, gasket sealer literally accelerates the lifetime of the gasket as a function of sheer strain applied to it. It may last a few years, but there is no way it will last as long as a dry gasket in this case.

*To calculate linear thermal expansion, multiply the CTE (see chart link) of the metal in question X length of the metal X change in temperature (There is volumetric thermal expansion too, which is a tougher calculation, but linear is useful to get a rough idea).
Linear Expansion= CTE X Length X ΔTemp F
For steel: 0.0000123 in/in F X 20in X 200° = 0.0492" of expansion
For aluminum: 0.0000073 in/in F X 20in X 200° = 0.0292" of expansion
CTE chart reference: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html

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75 Mikado G180/4sp Desert Tortoise

Anyhow at the risk of getting out into the weeds again lets try to solve the OP's problem. Something I have been missing myself here is--OP said engine was warmed up and running when water got into the oil. I was consentrating on the area in the head where the oil and water could meet up and mix at the oil port in the head. Not going to happen there with the engine running. Oil pressure is 50+ lbs and the water pressure is 15 lbs. Oil would travel into the water system not the other way around.
The most likely place for water to travel into the oil with the engine running would be in the low pressure area of the front head/timing cover. Again maybe the heater hose return nipple area would be a place to suspect.
I hope we can nail this down---my head hurts.

This is the same head in another thread that was missing the nipple egg is mentioning, I believe...

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If you think no one cares, try missing a couple of payments...



FIAA!

SFPP!

And Yes the aluminum head does "creap"with temperature changes and is why the paint is better than an actual sealer.
Hope all this helps[/quote]


Are You saying that, plain ole Silver Paint is better than the Permetex Copper Spray-a- gasket?

I do UNDERSTAND the THERMAL SITUATION that arises with di-similar metals. That being said and understood, I now present a question to Those that KNOW. My Intake is NEW. My Block has 115k with a few areas of erosion. (very slight pit, spots).

If I use the Copper Spray on the BLOCK SIDE (Very Light Coating) that should "fill" the surface imperfections, will, Not , the FelPro gasket INTAKE SIDE with NO Copper spray, allow, the INTAKE, to Expand/Contract ?? I know it will be a "Bear" to remove, if I ever have to, but I hate to plan for failure. If "things" don't seal now, the Engine will come out. Why not, just spray the BLOCK SIDE of the gasket. Only the INTAKE SIDE has the Orange Flexible Sealing strip ( maybe designed for that 'thermal action".

If I have "minor" imperfection on the block and the INTAKE is flat and smooth, then there has to be areas of inconsistent, torque, seal, pressure, (what ever One wants to call it) If the Copper Spray is designed (and it was, according to Permatex, to "fill" imperfections and help with the heat transfer how could that be a BAD THING?. I DON'T KNOW, THAT IS WHY I ASK. I AM CERTAINLY, NOT QUESTIONING THE EXPERT OPINIONS

Thank-you Fellows for Your Help!

Bill

A couple of questions to help us diagnose the problem first. You said the head was cracked, i assume that was verified by a machine shop? And what lead to the crack occurring? Did it run hot? etc.

_________________
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FIAA!

SFPP!

PLEASE GO BACK and read My first post. It will answer your questions I believe. My original head was cracked from one valve to another. My truck was showing only "minor symptoms". For six years that I have owned the truck, NO HOT NO PROBLEMS. I AM SECOND OWNER, SO SOMETIME BEFORE I GOT IT AT 95k IT HAD GOTTEN HOT AND THE GASKET WAS REPLACED SOMETIME BEFORE I GOT IT.. I KNOW THIS ONLY BY HAVING REMOVED THE FELPRO GASKET

I PURCHASED THE REMAN HEAD AND THE REST OF THE STORY IS WRITTEN IN THE THE POSTS

At this point I am settling on ( NO RTV ON FRONT COVER ,USED HEAD BOLTS AND SLIGHT IMPERFECTIONS ON THE BLOCK

[quote="WTBJRPLEASE GO BACK and read My first post. It will answer your questions I believe. My original head was cracked from one valve to another. My truck was showing only "minor symptoms". For six years that I have owned the truck, NO HOT NO PROBLEMS.
I PURCHASED THE REMAN HEAD AND THE REST OF THE STORY IS WRITTEN IN THE THE POSTS[/quote]

I did read it, all it said was the head was cracked, THAT IS WHY I ASKED...

Good luck

_________________
If you think no one cares, try missing a couple of payments...



FIAA!

SFPP!

I did read it, all it said was the head was cracked, THAT IS WHY I ASKED...

Good luck[/quote]

I am having one heck of a problem with this project. It started out with a cracked head. Then, I decided to upgrade and forked out $$$ for the Weber/Offy/Pacesetter as well as exhaust, water pump,radiator.

I ordered a REMAN head from RAMS CYLINDER HEAD in Missouri. I did not know that there should be NEW ONES somewhere so I bought REMAN. I do know that a lot of theses" HEAD SHOPS" aren't worthy and most of those have 120 day warranty ($310). RAMS have a three year so I went with them.$385 (complete)


I don't mean to be disrespectful of your offer to help me diagnosis my problem but, since it is my problem, and I did write the post, I should re-call, if not I went back and READ. what information has been presented. This is the first two paragraphs of the first post. it clearly states that I purchased a re-man head.

Sorry for the confusion.

My Mother taught school for over forty years. The first day of school for those forty years, she would hand out a three page question and answer hand out. The very first line stated, " FILL OUT YOUR NAME AND HAND IN". Do know how many students spent the entire class trying to answer three pages of questions, when ALL they had to do was to read the first line.

Bill

And apparently, you did not learn from her the importance of including ALL of the information in the the and I quote "the first line line". In your first 2 paragraphs, you stated it was a REMAN head. You also said the original head was CRACKED. NOWHERE in the FIRST LINE OR FIRST 2 PARAGRAPHS did you state what the original problem was. My initial question pertaining to the original issue was to see if something else was going on, SINCE YOU DID NOT HAVE THAT INFO. Then you (a newb at that) come back with condescending replies. I in the interest of TRYING TO HELP YOU, replied back and got another wise ass response, even after wishing you good luck. Well, I do believe you will need lots of luck, as you can't fix stupid...

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If you think no one cares, try missing a couple of payments...



FIAA!

SFPP!

mytmouz, I do apologize and ask for Your forgiveness. You are absolutely correct, I did ramble through out the first post. I should have presented all the information from start ( beginning of the first symptoms, almost two years ago. )

I only state that My original head was replaced with a Reman head, not giving any information that might lead to another diagnosis based on something that may have occurred in the past. I, on the other hand, assume that the problem I have now, is a result of one or a combination of ALL three things that I did or did not do because I am a Newb at that.. I used OLD HEAD BOLTS that had been clearly removed from a bad head and I DID NOT apply a small amount of RTV sealer to the low pressure area on the front of the head and possibly because there are slight surface imperfections on the block.

I should have presented the following information, before, I went straight to the new head ,but, knowing the history, I did not fill that it was necessary. Obviously, that was a huge mistake.

I have a 1985 1.9 PUP LWB 4X4 with 106K

The truck ran perfectly, except! About a year ago the coolant started filling and pushing out the over flow tank. My first attempt to fix, was a new rad cap and thermostat. When this did not work, I took it to a shop and had the coolant checked for exhaust gases as the symptoms pointed to a head gasket. The test was negative ( not sure if was done properly) but it cost $50 to find out zero.

From then, another cap, thermostat, new radiator and water pump. I just knew I had it, NOT!. From a cold start, I could drive a couple of blocks and the coolant overflow would be full and bubbling over. I deduced that, some how, before the thermo opened I was getting gases/pressure in the system to cause the overflow. I pulled the thermo and drilled three 1/8 holes in the flange to release the pressure on start up. Until I modified the thermo flange it bubbled violently into the tank and out of the tank. IT has never gotten hot, maybe 3/4 at the most.

This seem to fix the over flow tank issue for now, as It has not happened since. (Been over a year) I again deduced that there has to be a "hair-line leak" in the head gasket that is affected by temp. I refrain from driving too far from home and putting the truck under too much load in hopes that I could make it last until I could afford a "head job" The truck has NEVER over heated the entire six years that I have owned the truck

All of the above would occur randomly.

About a month ago, while driving easy ( not fast or loaded) All of a sudden Blue(oil) smoke would start blowing out the exhaust. It would do this for a short time, the truck would stutter a bit then clear up and return to running perfectly as always. I inspected and the carb/breather would be heavily oiled. ( Excessive Back Pressure) but why? The valve cover (inside) is clean and hoses are clear.

Again Sir, I do apologize for coming across as You say, smart ass and condescending. It was certainly not my intentions.When You wrote the following:

"A couple of questions to help us diagnose the problem first. You said the head was cracked, i assume that was verified by a machine shop? And what lead to the crack occurring? Did it run hot? etc."


I answered as I did because, You say nothing about the new head in your post and being a newb, I assumed You did not see that I had replaced the head and then You say, that, the ONLY information that I gave, was that the head was cracked. Why, being only human, I had to correct You, by showing You that I had stated that that the head I'm asking about was a new reman head.

And yes, the head was cracked. I did not need the shop to tell me, it was cracked. Your assumption was correct.

Again, I am sorry that I offended You.

Bill

Are You saying that, plain ole Silver Paint is better than the Permetex Copper Spray-a- gasket?

I do UNDERSTAND the THERMAL SITUATION that arises with di-similar metals. That being said and understood, I now present a question to Those that KNOW. My Intake is NEW. My Block has 115k with a few areas of erosion. (very slight pit, spots).

If I use the Copper Spray on the BLOCK SIDE (Very Light Coating) that should "fill" the surface imperfections, will, Not , the FelPro gasket INTAKE SIDE with NO Copper spray, allow, the INTAKE, to Expand/Contract ?? I know it will be a "Bear" to remove, if I ever have to, but I hate to plan for failure. If "things" don't seal now, the Engine will come out. Why not, just spray the BLOCK SIDE of the gasket. Only the INTAKE SIDE has the Orange Flexible Sealing strip ( maybe designed for that 'thermal action".

If I have "minor" imperfection on the block and the INTAKE is flat and smooth, then there has to be areas of inconsistent, torque, seal, pressure, (what ever One wants to call it) If the Copper Spray is designed (and it was, according to Permatex, to "fill" imperfections and help with the heat transfer how could that be a BAD THING?. I DON'T KNOW, THAT IS WHY I ASK. I AM CERTAINLY, NOT QUESTIONING THE EXPERT OPINIONS

Thank-you Fellows for Your Help!

Bill[/quote]

Again I guess my main point about the silver paint versus the copper spray was that the copper may be an adheasive/hardening type of gasket spray while the paint is not. Allows the aluminum head to move/creep with temperature changes. The paint is simply a filler of imperfections. Think of the silver paint as only that. Spraying only the block side of the gasket would also make sense to me.

Newb thought here, have you checked the inside of the timing chain cover. Maybe the timing chain wore a small hole and is allowing coolant to spill directly into the oil pan.

Again I guess my main point about the silver paint versus the copper spray was that the copper may be an adheasive/hardening type of gasket spray while the paint is not. Allows the aluminum head to move/creep with temperature changes. The paint is simply a filler of imperfections. Think of the silver paint as only that. Spraying only the block side of the gasket would also make sense to me.[/quote]

Any particular brand of Silver paint better than other?

Thanks

Bill

No, I have not pulled the oil pan. The chain, shows absolutely, no wear marks.

I have driven the truck for six years, with only minor issues. The engine started better that any vehicle I have ever owned at any time, cold or hot. never a puff of white and NEVER A MERGE OF WATER/OIL. I only suspected very slight breech of the gasket, that was temp affected.

When the latest episodes of excessive blow-by began, I decided that I would begin saving for a head job. When You are almost 60, physically, disabled, unemployed and retired a major engine repair job is not a welcome situation. After receiving estimates from several local shops, it was apparent to me that I would have to use the over 35 years in the Auto Repair Industry, seven years as both a Service Manger and Service Writer for Toyota, Jeep,Eagle, Chrysler,Plymouth and finally Porsche, Volkswagen experience and tackle this job. I have never done a head job myself so, this is, a learning experience.

Guy's, if I question advice, it is not because, I question Your knowledge, it is because I want to gain knowledge.. The only STUPID QUESTION IS THE ONE YOU DON'T ASK. There are SO MANY DIFFERENT VIEWS ON CERTAIN METHODS AND MATERIALS. ALL BASED ON EXPERIENCE FROM THE FOLKS THAT ARE GIVING THIS SAID ADVICE. Such as: new bolts/old bolts, gaskets installed dry/wet, copper spray gasket/silver paint, torque specs and methods to obtain and so on.

I only ask and ask and ask again to first get CLARIFICATION and In Hope of compiling enough of "Educated Guesses" to formulate a game plan.


I am truly sorry, If I offended any of those that have offered to help. One thing that I have learned, participating, on many different forums, be it CHEV.LUV, ISUZU ,ITALIAN SCOOTER,TRADITIONAL ARCHERY CROSSBOWS,SLINGSHOTS, GUNS, JEEP ,ETC., is that, there ALWAYS those that GET OFFENDED when their "Expertise" is questioned. Most of the time it is a situation of MIS-COMMUNICATION and nothing more. Some of those folks let the conditions of cyberspace to enable them be quite "expressive" when other wise, face to face, things would most likely be different.

Ain't CYBERSPACE wonderful?

I do appreciate ALL the HELP and ADVICE

In the end it will be up to Me as to what course of action I must take. I only want to base that decision on the collaborated efforts of those that have HELPED

Thank-you

Bill

Any particular brand of Silver paint better than other?

Thanks

Bill[/quote]

Don't remember the brands I used, it was several at the time. Last old can I found laying around here is: Rust-Oleum Metalic. It says brilliant metal finish on the can. It is a quick drying lacquer--30 min dry time.
Cheers

Don't remember the brands I used, it was several at the time. Last old can I found laying around here is: Rust-Oleum Metalic. It says brilliant metal finish on the can. It is a quick drying lacquer--30 min dry time.
Cheers[/quote]


Thanks

Bill

I really am not a fan of spray paint, rattle can paint has no hardner in it, so with heat is will not remain dry or hard. I stated before I have built many engines, from stock to Donovan 410 sprint car engines, and I am also a ASE master tech, L1 and smog, and factory trained in 2 major brands. I have ever had a issue with a good quality head gasket sealing minor imperfections. I honestly am leaning towards the timing cover leaking into the oil, just like the Dodge 5.9 V8 gas engine has a tendancy to do if coolant is not changed regularly.

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Certified pilots, looking down on people since 1903.

I have read this thread and there is a lot of great advice to try. I can add one more to the mix of tricks that has worked for me and is still working. I have a rusted out POS LUV that I have been driving for years. My LUV has what I am sure is a blown head gasket since it was going through all the coolant the engine could hold twice to each tank of gas. At the time I tried this "fix" I was working 60 plus hours a week and there was no time to pull the head and repair as needed. I know I am about to be attacked for suggesting this but my LUV was blowing through all the coolant the engine could hold and I tried a radiator additive called MEND TITE. That was more than 2 years and over 19,000 miles ago and I have had no other problems. Throughout the years I have been into multiple Ford, Mopar, GM, Datsun/Nissan ,(1)Volkswagen, Johnson and Evinrude Outboards, Briggs and Stratton and Tecumseh engines and I generally put head gaskets on dry but would have no issues trying a few of the ideas that have been suggested out here. Regardless of the path you choose, when you get it put back together and if the problem still persist....$7 for a bottle of MEND TITE and an hour or so following the directions (Which is literally get the engine to operating temp, pour it in and drive around for some amount of time) just might do the trick. Since then I have driven this truck all over the place up to 150+ mile one way trips in the 95 plus degree heat of the summer going fishing to back and forth from work in temps below Zero. I would not hesitate to use it again.

I admit I was never a fan of trying these additives in a bottle but this one came recommended to me from a mechanic friend of mine who has more than a few years on me. I have had no problems with it clogging the radiator, heater core or any other issues. Still driving it everyday.

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In life there is the "Way things should be" and then "There's the way they are".

2005 Silverado 3/4T Crew Cab
1981 Luv 2WD
1979 Luv 4x4 Currently going through Open Heart and Cosmetic surgery
1995 Roughneck JetBoat
1981 Luv parts trk

FINALLY ALL IS WELL!

HEADER, WEBER, OFFY NEW HEAD AND A FEW OTHER IMPROVEMENTS

FINALLY GOT THE BUGS (SHOP GREMLINS) RUN OFF.

I WILL HAVE TO SAY THAT THIS PROJECT HAS BEEN A REAL LEARNING EXPERIENCE. NO MATTER WHAT ANY ONE SAYS, WHEN REPLACING THE HEAD AND OR GASKET, IF THE HEAD HAS BEEN REMOVED BEFORE, INSTALL WITH NEW HEAD BOLTS AFTER YOU HAVE CHASED/CLEANED TAPPED THE THREADS. IF NOTHING ELSE, DO IT FOR PEACE OF MIND.

TRUCK RUNS SMOOTH WITH GOOD OIL PRESSURE AND EXCELLENT OPERATING TEMP. (170)

I WAS WORRIED ABOUT ALL THE COOLANT THAT ENTERED THE ENGINE ( RUNNING ONLY ABOUT THREE MINUTES) AFTER 5 GAL OF KEROSENE AND 4 GALS OF ENGINE OIL AND A COUPLE OF FILTERS, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO SIGN.

I AM DEFINITELY READY FOR A BREAK FROM TURNING WRENCHES

NEXT IS A LITTLE BODY WORK

I DO APPRECIATE ALL THE HELP AND ADVICE

I AM WORKING ON A SIMPLE PICTORIAL BUILD LOG FOR THE OFFENHAUSER INTAKE, WEBER CARB AND PACESETTER HEADER INSTALL. I DID RUN INTO SOME INTERESTING ISSUES WITH ALL THREE

THANKS

BILL

Where was the coolant leaking into the oil from?

_________________
Certified pilots, looking down on people since 1903.