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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:28 pm 
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I'm hoping it's not as bad as it sounds...but I don't know.

I'll start from the begining because that's generally the logical place to start. The day before Thanksgiving, I was driving my Luv ('82 Series 12 Diesel, C223, 2WD) back from an appointment and all of a sudden it started to lose power and as soon as I put the clutch in it died. I was going down a hill, so I was luckily able to pull onto a side street and park. I started it back up, fired up immediately but it was idleing rough, which it does sometimes on these cold days, but only before it warms up. Anyways, gave it some gas and it reved up a little then died. I did this a few times, before it started idleing better, then I started driving again. Got about a block before it died again. I pulled over and started it again. It puttered a few times then died. I took a minute to look around the truck and under the hood. Nothing out of the ordinary, all fuel levels good, nothing obviously wrong. Let it sit for a few minutes, then cranked it again, but it wouldn't start. It would turn, but it wouldn't catch.

At this point, I figured that the fuel filter was clogged. With the rough idleing it just seemed like it was starving for fuel. So, a few hours later, I switch out the fuel filter (which is just full of all sorts of junk. I've never noticed this before. Maybe i've never been paying attention. Is that normal for the fuel filter to be visibly full of gunk?), bleed the lines and try to crank it again. But lo and behond, it still won't catch. It turns over fine, sounds normal, except that it never ignites. I end up draining the battery from trying to crank it, thinking that there could be an air bubble that i need to pull through from changing the filter. So, I end up getting it towed to a friends shop, since I'm in another city 300 miles from all my tools. He keeps it for a couple days then gives me a call. He put in an inline electric fuel pump to help out the IP. It starts now, but idles terribly and won't stay on for more than a few seconds.

So he believes the injection pump is bad. I haven't talk to him indepth about how he came to this conclusion, so I'm not sure how he came to this diagnosis. I've believed in the past the IP was bad, but it turned out to be a faulty fuel filter housing letting air into the fuel line. So I'm more than a little hesitant to start burning money at the alter of the LUV. I left the vehicle with him and will be returning in a week. So i guess I'm looking for some ideas as to how I can rule out other problems and know for sure its the injection pump. Or is there some sort of small filter inside the injection pump that gets clogged? I'm open and grateful for any sort of tips, tricks, ideas or stories about similar sounding problems that people have.

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---Adam

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:33 pm 
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Adam, it certainly sounds like it's getting air rather than fuel. I'm kinda pushed for time, and don't have time to go through the whole troubleshooting process, but I don't feel too good about the mechanic since he put an electric pump on rather than diagnosing it properly.

There are a couple of screens in the injection pump that can clog, but you'd probably notice some power loss before it gets to the point that it just won't run.

If it were mine, here's where I'd start:
  1. Put some clean fuel into a 1/2 to 1 clean gallon jug, with a top that's large enough for two fuel lines.
  2. Clean off the exterior of the two fuel lines connected to the injection pump.
  3. Remove the electric pump and put everything back to original.
  4. Open the bleed screw on the rear banjo fitting of the injection pump. It's a small bolt that fits into a larger bolt. Loosen it, but don't remove it.
  5. Operate the hand primer on the filter housing until fuel comes out the bleeder fitting on the pump (if it won't, you may be sucking air).
  6. Disconnect the fuel lines from the ends opposite the injection pump (in other words, leave them connected to the injection pump, but disconnect them at the other ends). Stick the ends into your jug of fuel (from step 1). The fat one needs to stay below the surface, but the smaller one doesn't matter. These lines SHOULD have fuel in them, if you pumped fuel out the bleeder earlier.
  7. Have someone hold the lines in the jug, and try to start as normal.
Let us know what happens.

What city is the truck in now? I know quite a few people in southern Oregon who might be able to help. And did you just post on IsuzuPup.com about needing the bar to connect the glow plugs? I have one for you, if so.

Jack

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:24 pm 
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Thanks for the quick reply Jack. The truck is in portland right now. I'm going to do a little bit of troubleshooting on it tomorrow, so I'll let you know what happens.

As far as the bar to connect the glow plugs goes...I still need it, but now I need quite a few more things to put the glow system back to factory. The mechanic saw the old defunct switch to manually glow the plugs and believed that was what i was using to start the truck. So he add another switch and a relay and threw out half of the factory system, because he didn't know what it was. So...I'm gonna wait until i know what exactly I'm missing and also wait until i know about the injection pump. I love my LUV, but i don't really have that kind of money to fix it right now...

Thanks.
---Adam

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:09 pm 
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Ok, I can tell you what the original components were if you need that info. Just let me know on this thread.

Jack

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:45 pm 
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I was only able to get a little bit of troubleshooting in yesterday. The results were as follows:

1.) got everything back to normal with fuel system
2.) the fuel filter primer pump is sucking air.
3.) I got a fuel primer bulb to prime the lines and was able to get fuel to come out of the bleeder hole.
4.) Still won't start. After trying to start a few times i noticed that no fuel is coming out the return line.

Not sure if this was a good thing to do or not, but i tried to push some fuel through the injector pump, with the primer bulb, while the bleeder bolt was secured and still no fuel came out the return line. Is it possible for something to clog between that bleeder bolt and the fuel return? It seems like there are at the same junction. Does that bolt that the bleeder bolt is screwed into have a screen? Could this prevent the engine from starting?

On another note, I would greatly appriciate if you could give me the information on what comprises the original glow system. I think i've got everything except for the hardware right around the glow plugs, but not knowing what is part of the original system...I can't be sure.

Thanks for all your help Jack!
---Adam

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:29 pm 
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INeedLUV wrote:
Not sure if this was a good thing to do or not, but i tried to push some fuel through the injector pump, with the primer bulb, while the bleeder bolt was secured and still no fuel came out the return line. Is it possible for something to clog between that bleeder bolt and the fuel return? It seems like there are at the same junction. Does that bolt that the bleeder bolt is screwed into have a screen? Could this prevent the engine from starting?

No problem with pushing fuel through. Yes, there's a screen on the bleeder bolt--but I think if it's clogged, it would prevent fuel from coming out the bleeder bolt as well as the return line.

I'm still concerned that you're probably sucking air in, even when using the primer bulb. That's why I recommend trying to start it from a jug of fuel with only minimal fuel line. If it runs that way, it eliminates the pump as the problem. Then it's just a matter of isolating the leak in the fuel line.
INeedLUV wrote:
On another note, I would greatly appriciate if you could give me the information on what comprises the original glow system. I think i've got everything except for the hardware right around the glow plugs, but not knowing what is part of the original system...I can't be sure.

Major components, other than wiring:
  • Quick On System controller (QOS Controller). This is a small, flat box mounted on the driver's side kick panel, with some wires connected at one end. If you're lucky, it didn't get removed. It takes input from the thermo sensor to set the duration of the "quick on" glow cycle.
  • Dropping resistor. This is a metal box on the radiator core support that reduces the voltage from about 13.8v down to around 6v, so the plugs can stay on longer without burning out.
  • Relays (2). They're usually together on the passenger's side front fender, just in front of the fuel filter assembly. One powers the "Quick On" side and carries the entire 13.8v for a short burst. The other is for the lower-power secondary circuit that provides about 6v after the primary cuts out.
  • Thermo sensor. This is the single-wire sensor in the thermostat cover. The wire may be broken off, but it can be repaired.
  • Sensing resistor. This is connected to the bar that provides power to the glow plugs, and I think it has two leads. It also provides input to the QOS controller.
I think that covers it.

Jack

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:22 am 
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Quote:
That's why I recommend trying to start it from a jug of fuel with only minimal fuel line. If it runs that way, it eliminates the pump as the problem.


I guess I forgot to say that I followed your advise:

Quote:
Disconnect the fuel lines from the ends opposite the injection pump (in other words, leave them connected to the injection pump, but disconnect them at the other ends). Stick the ends into your jug of fuel (from step 1). The fat one needs to stay below the surface, but the smaller one doesn't matter. These lines SHOULD have fuel in them, if you pumped fuel out the bleeder earlier.
Have someone hold the lines in the jug, and try to start as normal.


After doing this, it would not start. I also primed the lines from the external jug of clean fuel.

I've been thinking about it. The thing that I don't understand is this. I had the primer bulb and a jug of clean fuel hooked up with clear fuel lines to see the movement of fuel or air. I prime the feed line so its full of fuel and then attach it to injection pump. Then put the return line so it goes into the jug of fuel. So Both the feed line and the return line go to the jug. I then try to use the bulb to push fuel through the injection pump and out the return line. First I try this with the bleeder bolt(that screws into a lager bolt) unscrewed a little. Fuel comes out the bleeder bolt, but it feels like it takes quite a bit of pressure with the bulb. The fuel in the return line did not move. Then I tighten the bleeder bolt down. Then I try to prime the lines more and push some fuel through the injection pump. I squeeze the bulb while watching the return line, but the fuel in the return line never moves. At the bulb, tt also feels and looks as though though no fuel is moving into the injection pump. The bulb is quite hard to squeeze, so it seemed like the lines were pressurized. So I don't really get why the fuel didn't come out the return line. Is there a screen between where the fuel can go out the bleed screw and out the return line? Is there some other problem that would prevent the fuel from passing through the injection pump. With a broken injection pump, is the fuel prevented from passing though or does it just not pressurize the lines to deliever enough fuel? I'm sort of stumped. Got any other ideas about ways to troubleshoot this? I'm going to spend some time tinkering with it tomorrow to try to find out more information and to see if i was doing everything correctly. I really don't think i could still be sucking air with the setup. I guess it could be possible that I didn't try to start it enough times to push out any air in the cylinders...I only gave it 5 or 6 chances. I don't know.

I'll let you know if I find anything.
---Adam

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:31 am 
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Adam,

It does indeed sound like you have more than an air leak going on. My approach would be to first get it running on "the bottle", then once it's verified that it WILL run, start re-attaching fuel lines.

Yes, there are two screens that can prevent fuel flow, but it seems this would show itself as low power and would not affect its ability to idle and to simply run. But here's the TSB that describes it.
Attachment:
bulletin_banjo_screens.jpg
bulletin_banjo_screens.jpg [ 93.31 KiB | Viewed 5032 times ]

The pump has a cutoff solenoid.
INeedLUV wrote:
So Both the feed line and the return line go to the jug. I then try to use the bulb to push fuel through the injection pump and out the return line. First I try this with the bleeder bolt(that screws into a lager bolt) unscrewed a little. Fuel comes out the bleeder bolt, but it feels like it takes quite a bit of pressure with the bulb. The fuel in the return line did not move. Then I tighten the bleeder bolt down. Then I try to prime the lines more and push some fuel through the injection pump. I squeeze the bulb while watching the return line, but the fuel in the return line never moves. At the bulb, tt also feels and looks as though though no fuel is moving into the injection pump. The bulb is quite hard to squeeze, so it seemed like the lines were pressurized. So I don't really get why the fuel didn't come out the return line. Is there a screen between where the fuel can go out the bleed screw and out the return line? Is there some other problem that would prevent the fuel from passing through the injection pump.

There is a fuel cutoff solenoid that can go bad, but it's not likely.
Attachment:
cutoff_solenoid.jpg
cutoff_solenoid.jpg [ 1.06 MiB | Viewed 5032 times ]

However, if the key was in the "off" or "acc" position when you used the bulb, it's normal to fell this resistance because the cutoff solenoid is "cut off". That would be my next thing to check. The cutoff solenoid should be the only thing on your pump with a wire attached. To bypass it, remove it from the pump and then remove the plunger and spring. CAUTION: the plunger and spring tend to remove themselves, so don't lose them! Re-install the solenoid without them. Just be aware that if it starts, you will need another way to shut it off because the key won't turn it off.

Test it with the solenoid gutted, and let us know what you find.

Jack

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:14 pm 
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I haven't removed and gutted the solenoid yet. Thats next on my list. But I've got a question first.

As before, I've got a jug of clean fuel with clear fuel lines going to the bulb primer pump then to the injection pump. Then a clear return line going back into the jug. I turned the key to "on" and tried to push fuel through the injection pump with the primer bulb, but was unable to. No fuel came out the return. No fuel went into the IP. The bulb is really hard to squeeze.

From what I understand, I thought that with the key in the "on" position that I should be able to pump fuel through the IP and out the return line. I really don't understand what would prevent this from happening. I thought for a second that maybe the solenoid wasn't getting power and thus wasn't opening. So I removed the wire, turned the key to "on" and put the wire on the solenoid and I could see a spark and hear it click like it was working. So it seems like the solenoid is working. I just dont get why I can't push fuel through the IP. Any ideas?

I'll get back to you about what happens with the gutted solenoid.

Thanks
---Adam

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:26 pm 
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Adam, it sounds like your solenoid is working, so I doubt you're going to learn anything new by gutting it.

I'm not sure just how much resistance you should expect using a bulb pump. I know that the hand primer on the fuel filter has very little travel, and it's always hard to tell if it's even working until you see fuel coming out of the bleed fitting. I suspect the hand primer is MUCH lower volume, but produces more pressure than you can produce with a bulb.

Is it possible to have someone crank while holding the return line out of the bottle to observe if fuel comes out? I'd point it upward, so it has to be forced out--otherwise it will drip out and confuse things. Keep in mind, the whole thing doesn't move a lot of fuel very fast.

Another way to check it is to loosen one injector pipe (at the injector) and observe for leakage. However, you should only expect a few drops.

If you're getting fuel, but not starting, it's probably not the pump.

Jack

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:33 pm 
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Ok, I did this:

Quote:
... have someone crank while holding the return line out of the bottle to observe if fuel comes out? I'd point it upward, so it has to be forced out--otherwise it will drip out and confuse things.


and it didn't push any fuel out....We only tried a few times until the battery gave out. It's charging up right now. It was already run down from all the troubleshooting. Not looking good...

---Adam

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:13 pm 
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I'd still open one injector pipe and check there. I'm not sure how much should come out the bleeder, since it's just the overflow from what doesn't get injected. Are you smelling any raw diesel from the tailpipe while cranking?

The pump is driven by the timing belt. It's not broken, is it? You can't see it, but you should be able to look into the oil fill hole and see if rocker arms move when cranking.

Jack

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:24 am 
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By the way, if you decide you need the pump overhauled--
There's a shop in Santa Maria, CA that's very familiar with these. One of the technicians drives P'ups and has been a member at IsuzuPup.com since its first year. He personally overhauled my pump and did a fantastic job.

They offer a discount for IsuzuPup.com members. Even with the discount, it's pricey ($500), but once they're done you can rule out the pump completely. I had mine done mainly because of leaks, and I figured after 30 years, it was due.

I've tried to help without taking you "offsite", but I've about reached the limit of what I can contribute. There's some great info HERE.

Jack

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:01 am 
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On this site we don't have many diesel owners, thus we don't have much info to help with this. Jacks site has much more info on diesels then we can come up with here. I would recomend a trip to his site (under his name on his posts is a link to his site), I am sure you would get help.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:52 pm 
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I'm about to start a post over at isuzupup.com, but I figure that I might as well keep posting here and build the library on diesel problems/troubleshooting for the next unlucky soul who has to deal with it. I had a few minutes to fiddle with it yesterday and here's whats new:

I removed and inspected the fuel cutoff solenoid. It beautifully shinny and works great. o-ring is in good shape. Tested it out with another battery and it opens and closes fine.

The rocker arms do move when cranking the engine. So I would assume the timing belt is intact.

Found out the hand primer pump on the fuel filter housing is not sucking air. Hooked up jug of fuel to the filter and used the hand pump to push a fair amount of diesel into another container. So there must be a problem between the tank and the filter.

I hooked up the jug of diesel to the fuel filter and then to the IP with clear fuel lines and tried to push some fuel through the system with the hand primer pump on the fuel fitler housing. I had the ignition turned to "on". Still no luck. Nothing came out the return. Then I lossened one of the injectors and still nothing. So fuel is not moving through the pump. After I was done with this I went to clean up and removed the fuel line inbetween the filter and the injector and it just sprayed everywhere because it was under pressure. So the hand primer pump on the fuel filter deffinatly works. No one was around to help, so I haven't had an injector open while trying to crank the engine. That's on my to do list.

Not sure where to go from here. Is there anywhere in the pump where it clogs fully? From the way people descirbe IP's failing its usually that the seals give and it doesn't pump enough fuel to the injectors, not preventing fuel from going to the injectors.

I guess I'll start a post over at isuzupup.com and see what they say. Thanks for all your help! Let me know if you get any bright ideas.
---Adam

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:19 pm 
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For any future person that has a similar problem or that just wants to know what happened:

Here's the link to the Isuzupup.com forum post that continues this battle.

I finally got it running tonight....but still don't know what if anything is wrong with it...

I'll probably post more over at the isuzupup forum when i know more. Because over here it's just been me and jack. ;)

Thanks Jack!

---Adam

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:40 pm 
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:)

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